Since reading Richard's recent posts re Habermas, I've been thinking about possible frameworks for an intersubjective dialogue between science and spirituality, hopefully one grounded in, following Debashish's suggestion, "an affective collective space of community." ...   more »

It is this mentally incomprehensible co-existence of Unity and Infinity in the Truth that it is critical to meditate on. It results in a great diversity of conclusions, not least of all the very possibility of this relational evolutionary universe and the unending self-discovery of Being. ...    more »

095 vb. Re: test

Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: vikas bamba <vikmere@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: test
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 95/149

Om Namo Bhagvate SriAravindaya.

(No response required.)

I have been browsing with interest the posts flying at supersonic speed on this list without being able to take much part due to a very pressured present schedule. However, on the subject of intersubjectivity and the collective yoga, I would like to add a few words for now (and maybe elaborate later, when time permits). ...   more »

093 ap. Re: Question about challenging the materialist view of the evolution of consciousness

Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:35:01 +0100 (BST)
From: alok pandey <taijasalok@yahoo.co.in
Subject: Re: Question about challenging the materialist view of the evolution of consciousness
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 93/149

Yes Vikas, I just had this thought after sending the previous mail that there was a need to mention what Sri Aurobindo has said that the Truth is One and Infinite at the same time. That explains the issue of varied experiencesof the One Truth.

thanks and love

alok

091 vr. Re: well,..why (how) even talk about it?!!!

Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Venkat Rajappan <venkatrajappan@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: well,..why (how) even talk about it?!!!
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 91/149

Here is a story of a more contemporary example of the scientific method in relation to arriving at the truth.

http://www.times.com/2005/07/24/science/24bird.html

cheers

venkat

... the only way to change others, who are not on the Integral Yoga path, is by our own example and integrity and not by theoretical bashing. ...    more »

089 rh. Re: well,..why (how) even talk about it?!!!

Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:53:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rod Hemsell <rodhemsell@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: well,..why (how) even talk about it?!!!  
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 89/149

Even on the individual level and for the small collective I often feel that rationalism of the Habermas type can almost certainly lead to the obscuration, corruption, even the abolition of the possibility of truth if there is not a strong guiding intuition. That's the reason for my (provisionally suspended) doubt. 

I was wondering if there is any physicist or anyone well conversant with physics in particular areas of electricity, magnetism, electromagnetism. I would like to have a more clear understanding of a few fundamental concepts. Of course this would be outside of the group. ...   more »

086 vb. Re: well,..why (how) even talk about it?!!!

Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 10:47:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: vikas bamba <vikmere@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: well,..why (how) even talk about it?!!!
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 86/149

Rod,

Nicely put. Love the quotes. Very apt.

I think the comments of Rich, Ron, Vikas, Don, etc. over the past few days have covered an extraordinary range of important ideas. And I really appreciate the treatment of Habermas and subjectivity. It is clear that this term refers to a domain of shared values and language that is created through "culture":

Rich said:

"While an individual may arrive at knowledge through a sudden flash of insight, Habermas insists that such knowledge enters the intersubjective sphere only by being translated into rational, accessible discourse. The sphere of intersubjectivity is not the creation of a single individual psyche, but is a medium of communicable knowledge, created and maintained through the interaction of many subjectivities." ...   more »

Point well made.    more »

Now that our community of intersubjectivity has been prepared by preliminary off the wall comments, and taking into consideration 1) my extreme doubt regrading the validity of the notion of intersubjectivity, and 2) that consciousness cannot be "explained," it is possible to create a kind of multimedia collage to convey such abstract points of view as that consciousness-force is matter-spirit and the behavior of rational mind is an infantile delusion. ...

   more »

I have not been reading much here so you maybe know about this, but today I checked out these opportunities to apply for funding for research into the topics on this discussion. Several are for $1million. There is also funding for developing communities for interaction on the intersection of science and spirituality. The deadline for the big money is Aug 1. ...

   more »

The problem of dualism and non-dualism is not solvable by only the matter-energy equation for there are worlds of different substance energy combinations and need to be reconciled with the material world. In any case dualism and non-dualism is a mater of practicality. It is obvious that Truth has to be One whatever that may be. But for our purposes we live in dualism or may be multiplism and we need to take stock of that and move from one level to another even when we are intellectually aware of the essential oneness of things. ...    more »

Yes, thats rightly put, Ron, I too feel that Science is taking / bound to take its inquiry into the field where there is the fundamental Reality of Consciousness. In fact I am aware of the well-intentioned authors you mention and had an occasion to make a huge compilation of several scientists arguing for and against the issue, the opinion then, (mid-nineties) was divided equally. 

Now how are we resolve this issue definitively? For, intellectually one can argue either ways depending upon the locus standii, the initial premises, the viewing window and so on. I suppose it is nearly impossible to solve or resolve the issue definitively at the purely mental level, at least where we as a race stand today. It is here that yoga steps in and with a difference. While Science tries to get at That by multiplying instruments and straining the intellectual mind to its utmost, Yoga tries to awaken the inner faculties, refine the existing ones and expand the mentla consciousness till it passes into the more than mind experience. That is pragmatism, to know it by seeing it or even better by becoming it. ...    more »

Maybe in an intersubjective cube, if I could figure out how to get in.    more »

Good point Rod what you write about non-dualism. In fact science does posit the point of view that energy and matter are interconvertible. In fact matter can be viewed as events in space and time.    more »

What is most fascinating ,interesting and perhaps even amusing is to know that in all these discussions it is only ONE reality(call it what you will) masquerading under different names seeking to know itself(albeit quite circuitously!). "God paying at hide and seek with HIMSELF"?    more »

To make my position clear, I've believed for as long as I can remember that Consciousness is a primary fundamental Reality and all else derives from It. (I hope this comes out in my posts.) I'm quoting scientists that seem to me to be at least sincere agnostics and perhaps even closet theists, which I understood to be Don and Jan's request in their effort to "challenge the materialistic view of evolution." ...    more »

The idea that there is consciousness in matter and that it may or may not be active in one plane of organization or another (bacteria, animals, etc.) along with vagueness about "consciousness" and "intelligence", mind and matter, etc. all stems from a dualistic Cartesian bias. If we try to understand the idea of chit-sakti, Consciousness-Force and realize that energy (matter) is consciousness and vice-versa, we can explain the phenomenon of conscioussness at all its various levels of organization from quantum fields to one celled organisms, and on up the ladder. ...    more »

Alok has put it well when he says that the the truths are verifiable by an inner psychological process. It may be added that these truths are no less verifiable externally than psychologically. The descent of HER force light and peace are as tangible and palpable as for eg the external touch of a hand. Still it is interesting to note the progress and the convergence of the sciences physics now bordering on metaphysics. ...    more »

... we must be careful of the attempt to reduce Consciousness to a material and mechanical phenomenon as indeed much of quantum mechanics implies, even when it talks of the electron behaving as if making choices. It is in fact one way of discarding the Truth by admitting and explaining it away. Sri Aurobindo pointed out this possibility and this new form of danger from the 'adversary'. ...    more »

>1. When did consciousness begin? 1) Who knows? But I do like Hameroff's idea that consciousness began in the Cambrian explosion about 540 million years ago. As you point out we have to be careful about how we're using terms like consciousness, awareness, intelligence, etc. So I'll be using the word "consciousness" to mean moments of self-awareness, not just the act of doing something, but the added awareness that one has done so. ...    more »

One difficulty I have with calling myself a theist is that when we explicitly call something "God," we risk that those not familiar with the Yoga will conflate our ideas with their personal, usually culturally embedded, connotations of the word. My reading of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother is that their ideas re Purusha and Prakriti are far more sophisticated than those held by most Westerners (and probably Easterners too). ...    more »

Hi Ron: Thanks for this very interesting stuff. I'd like to comment on three points, in the light of recent scientific developments: 1. When did consciousness begin? There are still a few behaviorist holdouts who refuse to talk about consciousness at all. Aside from this, there are some fairly hardline materialists who grudgingly admit "consciousness" (as no more than a brain state, of course) but deny it to infants and all animals. It gets interesting when you get to animals. ...    more »

Hi Ron, Thanks for the summaries of all of this interesting work, names & details of which are all new to me. "Wannabe theist"—that's funny. Can I quote you? michael    more »

Re your suggestion that we identify the metaphysical positions of our postings, here's my attempt with the researchers I mentioned in my previous posting: Jefferey Satinover, and Stuart Hameroff & Sir Roger Penrose. ...   more »

The beak of the finch is a well documented example. It evolves relatively quickly in relation to specific environmental changes. In general it's the elegant suitability of every adaptation to its species' ecological niche; chance alone cannot account for the degree of precision between means and ends found in nature both within and across species. The same degree of formal elegance is found on the level of cosmic macroevolution. For example the recurrence of Fibbonacci numbers in spirals and geometric solids from crystal molecules to sunflowers to galaxies. ...    more »

Hameroff and Penrose have written many papers about the relationship between the fundamental properties of reality and human consciousness, via proposed quantum processes within tiny microtubules inside the brain's neurons. [The "mind of the cells?"] - Their perspective is that mathematical truths and values like truth, beauty, harmony, and goodness exist as inherent, non-reducible characteristics of reality. Penrose has done sophisticated mathematics implying that these "proto-conscious qualia could be fundamental properties of space-time geometry." He suggests that these "Platonic values" exist at the infinitesimal Planck scale (10^-33 cm, 10^-43 seconds), where space-time itself becomes quantized. ...    more »

.. it seems that the metaphysical questions raised by Sheldrake and Marghese are the necessary ones to ask if one isn't satisfied with scientific explanations. Science doesn't usually attempt to answer those questions because it wants to base its proofs on empirical observation. Adaptability through mutation can be observed and the theory proven. For us the more interesting mystery is that the principle of adaptability exists and shows itself in such an infinitely amazing array of purposeful natural design. It seems to us that such purposeful adaptability is virtually synonymous with "intelligence" or "consciousness". Since consciousness in humans can be explained as the emergence of such a purposeful adaptation at the top of the ladder, along with will and intentionality, we seem to have in our possession the principles that explain everything. ...   more »

059 d&j. Re: Questioning Neo-Darwinism

From: "Jan Maslow" <jmaslow@jps.net
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com
Subject: Re: Questioning Neo-Darwinism
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 07:04:24 -0400

Message - 059/149

this is great rich, thanks so much. Gould continues to surprise me.

I'm sending this letter as part of my ongoing attempt to refine the presentation in our book on the questionable assumptions underlying the materialistic understanding of the mainstream view of evolution. (By the way, this is also an indirect answer to the questions raised by Rich and Alok - here is a practical question - what should I write - and my goal in initiating a dialogue with members of this forum is to find support in refining my (inner) intuitive understanding).    more »

... at every point in time, the mind of man holds a thousand thoughts and out of which a hundred actions can arise. but when the light is present and the mind is calm, he holds those integrally purified set of thoughts and actions which bear the truth in them, which takes one closer to the goal. ...   more »

... It was such an honor to meet Dr. V. He has such a sweet presence and self-effacing manner. When he speaks of his work, it is Mother's work he refers to, and assures one and all that it couldn't have been done by himself alone, but only through Her guidance and shakti. And he insists that this be included in the training for all the staff, and that at the heart of his hospital and any clinics he sets up there be a room set up dedicated to Mother and Sri Aurobindo, for the staff to retire to for inspiration and renewal. ...   more »

053 vr. Re: test

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:14:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Venkat Rajappan <venkatrajappan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: test

Message - 053/149

me too

—- alok pandey <taijasalok@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

> Received.

052 ap. Re: test

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:42:56 +0100 (BST)
From: alok pandey <taijasalok@yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: test
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 052/149

Received. 

051 ap. Re: the secret of action

Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 10:41:55 +0100 (BST)
From: alok pandey <taijasalok@yahoo.co.in>
Subject: Re: the secret of action
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com

Message - 051/149

That's it, the most perfect solution and the most practicable one since it derives its practise from knowing the truth of things.

Thanks for the apt message from the Essays

alok

The reaction of the biologists was to be expected yet you must carry on this work. After all they feel the sense-experience as alone real and have nothing else to fall back upon and that is one reason why the problem can be solved only by an advancement of human consciousness that can see the Divine and His Work everywhere, a state still a far cry from most of humanity and only a promise for the few!

Also while it is true that Science is its real nature is an agnostic, it has been and for valid purposes atheistic in its practical conclusions. ...   more »

049 mm. Re: test

Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: MICHAEL MIOVIC <mmiovic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: test

Message - 049/149

got it

michael

As I understand, one of the important questions, that we discussed in the AUM and it continues here, is about what we can DO. The pragmatic man wants definite action points, like Arjuna, he asks again and again what he should do, and is not satisfied with Krishna's answers. His idea of action means something quite different from the Lord's , and therein lies Arjuna's discomfort. Maybe some of us feel a similar discomfort from hearing Alok repeat his 'practical guide' of seeking the inner truth for all solutions of life. It is not practical enough of us. But if we venture on this road and see events from that Light, we might laugh at our undertanding of "being practical." ...   more »

047 m&g. RE: test

From: "integrallife" <integrallife@sbcglobal.net>
To: scienceandspirit@sriaurobindocenter-la.com
Subject: RE: test
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:58:20 -0700

Message - 047/149

Replying to "test"

Maury and Gaia

Don, I would just stand outside the debate between these two sets of biologists, the ones you originally cited and the professor's replies. Accept the technical corrections from your critics that are valid (i.e., make sure your wording is precise, thank them for the input, and move on. ...    more »

... To add to Alok's comments, Firstly, I believe that an integral yoga, by its very origin and practise demands a participation in the world, whether on the subjective or objective dimension. Therefore the question itself seems almost contradictory. Except that as Alok said that one need not jump into active participation, unless as Rich puts it, one receives 'a call to action', presumably from a deeper voice within. ...   more »

... We do try in earlier portions of the book to lay out the metaphysical foundations for what we're presenting. The book has evolved (!) from a somewhat academic style to a more experiential style, so we generally avoid too much purely scholarly discussion (I was originally planning to have a whole chapter laying out some 6 or 7 different theories of consciousness, from physicalism to pan-experientialism; mercifully, that idea was laid aside long ago). We do point out in the chapter from which the evolution excerpt was taken that the data of science fit equally with materialist, dualist and idealist views. Early in the course of working on this book, I came across a very interesting book by neuroscientist Donald Hoffman from California Institute of Technology in which he elaborates Matthijs' point about the illusions of our sense perception in some detail, and explains why idealism and dualism are as good (and in many respects better) explanations for the data of science than physicalism (otherwise known as materialism or "the view from nowhere"). ...   more »

... 1. The events of the world as in the individual are symbolic of a deeper rtruth that is trying to manifest or is being obstructed (though in the last analysis both help in the working but that would be a dangerous stance to begin with). To understand the symbolic truth or the play and balance of forces that are at work one needs first of al to get rid of nervous and emotional reaction as well as of the surface reason that is incapable of knowing. This itself would mean a considerable inner advancement following the path of yoga. Till that is available it is better to suspend our judgement and learn to dive deep to get the soul vision of things. Such a vision is possible and accessible and it forms in fact one of the basis of yogic efforts. ...   more »

Rich, From your post, I extracted the following concerns: 1) Do we need to interpret the events happening around us as a part of the integral yoga? ... ... These are all very loaded quations that merit our deepest consideration. At this moment it is difficult for me to find the time to give adequate answers, but I do hope others will give them due attention. ...   more »

The way I think about this is that discussing the "science" in this debate at the level of what experimental data show & don't show is a red herring. I think that there are basically 3 different metaphysical models of reality that people adhere to for a priori reasons, and there is no definite proof for or against any of the 3. They are theism, agnosticisim, and atheism (all broadly defined). ...    more »

We (Don and Jan) are (hopefully) about 6 months from completing a book, "Through the Eyes of Infinity: Exploring the Vision of Yoga Psychology", which presents Sri Aurobindo's Integral Psychology in the context of the Indian tradition of Yoga Psychology. We very much need some help from someone familiar both with the science of evolutionary biology and with Sri Aurobindo's spiritual vision. ...   more »

Yes, each epoch has its demi-god that shapes human lives and is a necessary link in the evolutionary leap. Science followed religion and now spirituality follows in the footsteps. This idea (vision) is very beautifully expressed by Sri Aurobindo in two of His poems that have a prophetic ring about them, - 'In the Moonlight' and 'A Vision of Science'. Interested readers may like to go through these to enjoy the original flavour. ...   more »